Lawful Good ethics question / summoning fodder

[Mhr'djynn]

Hypothetical question: I was wondering if any of the serious roleplayers out there who are playing lawful good think that it is unethical to summon monsters/animals/whatever to send to their certain doom?

As I am playing chaotic neutral, I certainly have no problem with this, but a friend of mine who plays AD&D brought up the point, and I wonder what others think of it.

Mhr'djynn

[Black Hand]

I always wondered why a lawful good Cleric (Anomen) is able to summon Pit Fiends. I think the array or priest spells should depend on the alignment.

[geh4th]

I cannot imagine any event that would warrant a Good cleric deliberately summoning a demon into the prime material plane, as fodder or for any other reason. The dangers far outweigh any possible benefits. This should be something that is not allowable. If a good cleric casts a gate spell, he should get something GOOD of equvalent power (but that something is not going to go on a killing rampage, either, so the goals may be a bit different.)

For other conjuring spells, I don't see as much an issue; the animals/monsters serve the greater good when conjured, and (help me out, I am not sure of the animals' or monsters' origins, here) are they really "alive" anyway? they DO "unsummon" at the end of the spell, after all...

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

[Rail]

I agree. I have always thought a LG cleric should be able to summon some sort of LG being instead of a demon. However, it's kinda nice summoning demon fodder to fall before your enemies. More suffering for demonkind.

I played a druid, and wouldn't summon animals except in the direst of circumstances, if I thought they would perish. Elementals, however, were a different story, since they are just sent back to their elemental plane.

[Mhr'djynn]

Originally posted by geh4th:
I cannot imagine any event that would warrant a Good cleric deliberately summoning a demon into the prime material plane, as fodder or for any other reason.

Agreed.

...are they really "alive" anyway? they DO "unsummon" at the end of the spell, after all...

If they survive the battle, they are unsummoned, but they may still perish during battle, and I suppose feel pain and so forth. I have seen many a nymph corpse laying on the ground after battles in which Jahiera has summoned woodland beings. And speaking of which, would it be ethical for a Druid to ever summon creatures to be used as fodder? Certainly their place in the battle serves the greater good from the protagonist's point of view, but arent they protectors of nature? Of course, if these beings are just magical in nature and do not actually exist, the question loses its steam. But you raise a really good point. Where do they really come from and what is their nature of existence? hmm...

[Tain]

The game is biased towards good alignments with the the reputation effects and all. I think it would be balanced towards role-playing if it worked this way:

Good, receive all the benefits from high reputation.

Evil, have the advantage of summoning demons.

Unfortunately, everyone can summon demons regardless of alignment. http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/frown.gif

[Maurice]

I must say that when I started playing BG 1, and chose a Cleric, I was able to animate skeletons?? What the f*ck was that all about? Weren't Clerics supposed to get those 6 feet under for good?

Anyway, I simply refused to use that spell, also because in BG1 the spell wasn't really great. I've been using it from time to time in BG2, because it summons a skeleton warrior instead of a normal skeleton. But still I think it is weird that a cleric can summon Skeletons and Demons ...

[Ubik]

One more vote for that. Summoning demons and skeletons just is not right for a LG cleric or druid. I think they could replace those with something more... productive.
Let's say, "summon kinky beings" or "Bedtime". Great druid-clerical spells
http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[geh4th]

So, O rules lawyers, does anybody know if conjured animals (and some monsters) are actually "borrowed" from another location temporarily, or are they "created" for purposes of this spell?

I know that extra-planar creatures are always brought in via some kind of planar gate, and thus are "real". I'm interested in the bears, hobgoblins, dogs, wolves, etc.

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

[Waverly]

You have to remember, you are in the Faerun, your Judeo-Christian view of good and evil do not apply. Someone pick this up and expand on it- I have to get to a meeting http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Chrissy]

Druids are all about nature right? I don't think they'd approve of some of the tactics used. (summon lots of living things and get them squashed while you stand back and kill the monster with spells) You can get them to help you, but not just as cannonmeat would be MHO. And I think the summoned creatures aren't created by the spell, just called from somewhere... (using the horde-wish would seriously damage the ecosystem. You'd get a rabbit plague... http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/wink.gif)

[geh4th]

Hmmm...good and evil seems a pretty universal concept to me....regardless of any player's religious inclinations. This is all pretty well defined by numerous factors.

Please do not imply that one does not know the difference between good and evil simply because we do not LIVE in Faerun, or experience the environment the PC's live in.
I for one would know that unleashing a demon into the world (ANY world) in NOT an act of benevolence. The summoner's ultimate motives would be irrelevant in this case.



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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

[Krom]

Animate dead is accessible for any priest who has access to the Necromancy sphere. The priestly version of the spell is not as "effective" as the wizard version and is not as "corrupting". I consider it as summoning a deceased ally of your god to battle for you for a short time. However, I do consider it something to be used sparingly.

As far as the 5th lvl wizard version, this spell is evil as defined by the rules. This spell draws directly on the power of the negative material plane to animate a corpse. You can also use it to create zombies. That kind of energy will corrupt a "good" wizard. Guess that's a good enough reason why the wizard version isn't in the game.

[geh4th]

I thought the 5th level wizard version "animate dead" WAS in the game....I don't recall finding it, but it IS in the rules manual....

And I agree that the cleric version CAN be construed as a "temporary" recall of the spirit of a deceased warrior of the faith, and is released (and cleansed) once the service is no longer needed. In a lot of ways, this is better than summoning an animal that the cleric KNOWS is going to get butchered in the combat anyway.....what better to summon that something that you need not worry about getting killed???

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"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit

[Krom]

Whoops. Hit post before I finished the rest of my message.

As far as conjuring demons, I personally don't think any kind of lawful good priesthood would permit that. Most other alignments might look at it as a means to an end.

As far as conjuring animals, that will be a toss up. Druids and rangers might consider it as summoning allies to a great battle. However, I consider overuse as abusing the power and would be frowned upon by a deity. It would be nice if there were character "barks" from Jaheira or Minsc whenever a summoned animal died: "You killed my woodland friends...die foul beast!"

As far as wizard summoning spells...wizards in general see it as a means to an end. If you're a LG wizard, you might have some remorse, but I doubt it. Why sweat the small stuff? Heck, by the time you're 18th level, you are by far one of the most powerful character classes (if played correctly) on the realm. You have the power to level a city or create your own pad in an elemental plane.