Best NPC Archer: Kivan or Coran?

[roller1234]

Yes well the comparative table on the previous page listed neither so i had to mention it. Wouldnt it make more sense to compare Kivan to Minsc though. Both are rangers with melee capability. Kivan is better with bows, but Minsc is better with two-handed weapons. Given that Coran is best @ranged, picking either of those would be based on a mix of their abilities(since going for pure archery -> Coran). And in this case im not so sure if Kivan actually wins against the mighty Minsc either.

So the progression seems to be actually Coran>Minsc>Kivan.

[Jordoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller1234 Yes well the comparative table on the previous page listed neither so i had to mention it. Wouldnt it make more sense to compare Kivan to Minsc though. Both are rangers with melee capability. Kivan is better with bows, but Minsc is better with two-handed weapons. Given that Coran is best @ranged, picking either of those would be based on a mix of their abilities(since going for pure archery -> Coran). And in this case im not so sure if Kivan actually wins against the mighty Minsc either. So the progression seems to be actually Coran>Minsc>Kivan.

If your compairing archers in BGI then its Coran vs Kivan and nobody else. Khalid finishes a distant 3rd.
If your compairing the overall NPC's Kivan in my mind is slightly better than Minsc at least for BGI. He's just an absolute gunner with a longbow and at 18(12) str he's no slouch with a halibard or 2handed sword, plus if you use the MANY strength potions he's just as good as Minsc in that reguard. He also has better dexterity and thus better AC than Minsc.
I agree with you though that Coran is a better overall NPC than either.

[EtherImp]

Just to clear something up.. (This is probably only available while running Tutu)

According to AD&D 2nd ed rules, Composite bows (Composite long bow for example) apply your DAMAGE BONUS from your STRENGTH SCORE to your bows DAMAGE MODIFIER..

For example, a character with a high strength score, who receives, say, +3 to damage due to his strength, would receive that +3 to damage when using a Composite Bow, as well as his THAC0 modifier from his DEXTERITY score to the Composite Long Bow.

So.. How do you figure out who the better archer is?

Figure out how high you can specialize each character at, say, level 8: Coran and Kivan, by only selecting bow profiencies of your choice (the best bow possible, for their class).

Then figure out Kivans strength bonus, and his THAC0 at level 8,with Composite Long Bow, and all modifiers from specialties applied.

Figure out the same for Coran.

Apply the "best" equipment set for each player. (+1 Composite Long Bow, Gauntlets of Dex/Archery/whatever, Girdles of Strength..whatever would improve their archery the most)

Average out the damage done over 1000 turns. Whoever comes out higher, wins.

With the Strength Bonus applied, and using a Composite Long Bow, I think Kivan would win, or it would be a tie (due to Corans extra specialization). Especially if you gave Kivan the gauntlets of Dex. I'm pretty sure 18 Str and 18 Dex with a Comp Long Bow beats 20 dex with a non-Comp bow.

[roller1234]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordoo If your compairing archers in BGI then its Coran vs Kivan and nobody else. Khalid finishes a distant 3rd. If your compairing the overall NPC's Kivan in my mind is slightly better than Minsc at least for BGI. He's just an absolute gunner with a longbow and at 18(12) str he's no slouch with a halibard or 2handed sword, plus if you use the MANY strength potions he's just as good as Minsc in that reguard. He also has better dexterity and thus better AC than Minsc. I agree with you though that Coran is a better overall NPC than either.

Good point about Khalid. I'd say then Kagain too, with dex gauntlets. I dont see anything making Kivan actually different from other NPCs to justify calling Khalid or Minsc a distant 3rd. He is just a regular ranger, not exactly the strongest class in BG. Only because he does have an avatar with a bow, doesnt make him excel in said area. Even though thats probably the reason.

EtherImp

Quote:

According to AD&D 2nd ed rules

In BG, slings do apply strength bonus to damage, and bows do not. Simple as that. In NWN1/2 there is a "mighty" modifier which lets you add some of the str bonus to damage. Which is ironically the same as in BG, where most bows do have an additional damage bonus on them already. I dont know how BG2 handles this, but i doubt it is any different, and lets you add 14 damage to each ranged shot, heh.

[Jordoo]

I am pretty sure that roller1234 is correct about the damage from your strength modifyer only applying to slings.


In response to Kahlid NOT being a distant 3rd:
Coran gets +3 from 20dex, +1 because he's an elf, +3 to hit and +3 to damage as a master in bow.
Total= +7th +3td

Kivan gets +2 from 17dex, +1 because he's an elf, +1 to hit and +2 to damage as a bow specialist.
Total= +4th +2td

Kahlid gets +1 from 16dex, +3 to hit and +3 to damage as a bow master.
Total= +4th +3td

Minsc gets +1 to hit and +2 to damage as a bow specialist.
Total= +1th +2td

Your right roller1234 Kahlid should be a better archer than Kivan and he would level up faster than either of the rangers or multiclssed Coran. Gotta admit that one surprised me.

Oh and Kaigen is the best natural Tank in the game IMO. As dwarf he gets some good saves plus his 20con.

[EtherImp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller1234 EtherImp In BG, slings do apply strength bonus to damage, and bows do not. Simple as that. In NWN1/2 there is a "mighty" modifier which lets you add some of the str bonus to damage. Which is ironically the same as in BG, where most bows do have an additional damage bonus on them already. I dont know how BG2 handles this, but i doubt it is any different, and lets you add 14 damage to each ranged shot, heh.

I'm fairly sure in BG2 (tutu for BG1), Composite Long Bows apply your strength bonus to damage, which would give Kivan a significant damage bonus.

[Jordoo]

The bonus to damage does not apply in BGI or ToTSC for composite bows. If it does in TuTu I wasn't aware of it but even if thats the case whats the actual extra damage for 18(12) strength? +2 or +3? Even if its +3 that means Kivan would be doing 2 more damage than Kivan per hit but Coran would still have +3 bonus to hit over Kivan.

BTW, if you have the strength to use a composite long bow (which both characters do) how would being stronger mean your doing more damage? Your either strong enough to pull the bow back or your not, thus the built in bonus to damage for the weapon itself.

[roller1234]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EtherImp I'm fairly sure in BG2 (tutu for BG1), Composite Long Bows apply your strength bonus to damage, which would give Kivan a significant damage bonus.

How can you say this. What does have another game or mods have to do with anything. Regardless of whether composite bows in BG2 actually do apply anything to damage, which they by design dont do in bg1 nor in nwn1/2. I actually went ahead and made a 25 str comp. bow archer in BG2. He did 7 damage to a mephit. You cant do 7 damage to something if youre doing 1d8+15 with each strike, here is the proof. Feel free to look up yourself, its not that difficult at all. Composite bows do not apply anything to anything.

Jordoo
Hehe yeah, i picked up Khalid as an archer so far. There is still time 'till Cloakwood. Here is another thought. Maybe he was designed to be an archer. That would explain his low str, and/or make it irrelevant. Another successful deception by avatar i'd say.

[GawainBS]

Composite Longbows do +2 to damage, from being a Comp. Longbow. That's all there is to it in BG1. They also add their enhancement bonus to damage, as do all weapons, and proficiency bonus.

[roller1234]

interesting. Yes my bg2 archer was able to reach damage values up to 11. With a 2-9 bow this would indeed imply there is a +2 to damage bonus. The interesting part is that it is generally assumed that the longbow of marksmanship is the better bow. With this however lets look at the stats

Longbow of Marksmanship: +3th, +2td
Composite Longbow +1: +2th, +5td (+3td base +2td from being composite)

Given high enough thac0, +3 extra damage per strike isnt that insignificant.

[GawainBS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller1234 interesting. Yes my bg2 archer was able to reach damage values up to 11. With a 2-9 bow this would indeed imply there is a +2 to damage bonus. The interesting part is that it is generally assumed that the longbow of marksmanship is the better bow. With this however lets look at the stats Longbow of Marksmanship: +3th, +2td Composite Longbow +1: +2th, +5td (+3td base +2td from being composite) Given high enough thac0, +3 extra damage per strike isnt that insignificant.

No, the Comp. Longbow +1 gives +2 to hit and +3 damage. I prefer the Longbow of Marksmanship because of the +3 to hit bonus.

[roller1234]

Ah, i see. I was just mystified a bit by your statement that composite bows do have an additional hidden damage bonus, where you merely stated the listed bonus.

[EtherImp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller1234 How can you say this. What does have another game or mods have to do with anything. Regardless of whether composite bows in BG2 actually do apply anything to damage, which they by design dont do in bg1 nor in nwn1/2. I actually went ahead and made a 25 str comp. bow archer in BG2. He did 7 damage to a mephit. You cant do 7 damage to something if youre doing 1d8+15 with each strike, here is the proof. Feel free to look up yourself, its not that difficult at all. Composite bows do not apply anything to anything. Jordoo Hehe yeah, i picked up Khalid as an archer so far. There is still time 'till Cloakwood. Here is another thought. Maybe he was designed to be an archer. That would explain his low str, and/or make it irrelevant. Another successful deception by avatar i'd say.

A lot of people play BG1 using Tutu, which runs off of the BG2 engine, first of all.

Secondly, if I'm wrong about BG2 using Composite Longbow rules which apply Strength bonus to damage, then just ignore what I said.

[GawainBS]

I believe someone already tested the "Comp. Longbow uses STR" and he confirmed that it doesn't.

[Pellinore]

I would prefer an archer with higher chance to hit rather than a high damage. So I think Coran would be my choice.