[Magrus]

Originally Posted by Darzog

To everyone that said it would be justified for animals or an oppressed culture to raise up and throw off the yoke of "us", you're a bunch of hypocrites. I'm assuming you think it's justified since we did it to them first, but that makes them just as wrong as we were in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That wasn't my point, not at all. My point was...species were forcibly removed from their habitats, and are being or were killed off because of it. It isn't a notion of "getting even", it was reclaiming their homes. I became curious as to people's view on the subject. I've gotten that now.

Originally Posted by Lestat

Sorry Magrus, I fail to see what's so "disturbing" and "disgusting" about Masa's post. I've seen quite a few things more disturbing and disgusting than what he expressed, though it is fairly crudely or bluntly expressed.

No? I've been around some things which are worse, but the viewpoints expressed, I find to be disturbing and disgusting.

Originally Posted by Masa

Animals are only animals, they can't think as we humans. They just act upon their senses and that is what gives us the right to "use" animals to our own advantage(this may sound horrible but don't take it that way)to a certain point to entertaining purposes and yes testing too but I think they use mainly those lowlife creatures such as rats and other critters(can you honestly demand the tests to be done with humans or no testing at all, and animal activists I think they care more about animals than humans, which to me is absurd).

Animals are only animals, including humans, as humans are animals. Masa, most humans can't think on the same level I do, does that make me a superior being? I took an IQ test, while I had a migraine and scored higher than 97% of American citizens on that test. Does that in and of itself give me the right to cage, experiment on, "use to my own advantage" all of those people, or just kill them if they displease me, because I am superior intellectually than they are?

I am also stronger than many people. Not all, not by any means. However, I am a fairly large, adult male, who happens to be stronger than a large percentage of the population. Does this, by the right of being physically stronger than others, the right to force those weaker than me to do my bidding? To grab someone off of the street, drag them home, and under an unspoken agreement of the fact that I dominated them, I feed them and they entertain me?

"Of course I object molesting and torturing animals.Who can honestly tell if an animal is suffering even if it is in a gage, humans still feed them."

Oh yeah, well, of course all those people in prison are thrilled that they get three meals a day, even if they are stuck in a cage and forced to do as others tell them. And I can tell when an animal isn't happy. You don't need to be able to speak the same language as another human being to be able to tell if he/she is upset, angry or happy, do you? If I went over to Russia, and started beating on an old woman, I wouldn't be completely clueless as to her emotional state during or after it. I can tell when a bird, cat, dog, or ant is angry or upset. They act differently than normal.

"Pets are different case they enjoy being around humans because they are raised to be that way and we feed them too, waht more could an animal possibly want. If they wouldn't like it they would run away wouldn't they..."

"Pets", in the sense you are using, are species of animals who have been deliberately and specifically captured, trained, and raised for hundreds of generations in order to instill subservience and a need for companionship in the species. Humans found species with certain traits, and ended up manipulating those traits to get what they wanted out of those species. I could raise a baby to fetch my paper and cut my lawn in exchange for decent treatment, shelter and food. Keep him locked up on a chain in the backyard, and feed him kibble from a bowl, and, since he never learned anything better, that's as good as life has gotten for him. He's happy as a pig in ****, ain't he?

"hypotethically speaking, if a predator race would appear I would fight back any means possible. It wouldn't be justified fo them to wipe out the human race. And if that was to happen I would give them a lot of credit for destroying the greatest race ever, which would make the predators superior."

Hypothetically speaking...Hmm. Well, lets see. Where can I take that. Ah yes, modern science has found that my brain works differently than other humans in an "abnormal and inexplicable manner" according to EKG and EEG's done years ago. Doses of chemicals which were predicted to kill me a few years ago have not done so. My metabolism also doesn't work the same as other humans. Hypothetically speaking, I could be a new variation on the species known as humans. So if that were the case, I could put you in a cage, and tear you apart and figure out whats so different about me and you, and that'd be perfectly fine with you?

"Now the original point was to make clear that humans and animals are not on the same level and that animals are for humans to use.
Now some people may think that by using I mean anything you can do with it,
no, I mean for eating, as a companion, for working and stuff that doesn't involve molesting or torturing. I hope I've made point clear enough.
"

You made that perfectly clear. So, I'm supposed to say "Oh, ok, well so long as you aren't torturing or raping anything, it's ok"? I mean, there's nothing bad that can be done to something if you exclude those two, right?

Originally Posted by Lestat

I assume you mean duty.
Not always, sometimes you will have to choose between man and animal. Certain animals can spread diseases (rats, a whole host of insects), others damage important structures (muskrats undermine dikes, termites eat wooden structures) or eat up stored food (too large a list).

Hmm, all things considered with how far humans have spread on this planet, does it not surprise you that other species would need to damage human structures and eat "human" food in order to survive? If a huge area is covered in fields of say...corn, in the center of the US. That means the whole area is then devoid of much else besides...corn. If, other species needed to eat grass, or acorns, or dandelions, and lived in that area....they would be forced to eat that corn, or vacate their natural habitat in order to survive, correct? What right does humanity have to claim ALL the land in the world and take whatever they are capable of, just because they can?

I mean, really, what makes my species as a whole believe they have this divine right to take anything they want, from anything, so long as it can't stop them? To take everything in sight, and claim it as their own? Other species set up areas which they claim as their own habitat, and share it with species with similar needs. They may kill each other, but only in self-defense and for food to survive or while protecting their young from predators looking for food. They don't specifically target and kill another species off in order to shoo them from large plots of land in order to make sure they are they only species on it. They don't capture, corral and detain a whole species for the express purpose of food consumption.

I see absolutly nothing superior in what humans have accomplished. Granted, they have taken what they wanted by force and learning how to make tools to use in violent actions, but really? How does that make them overall superior to another species? I can beat the ever loving hell out of many people, that doesn't make me better than those people. I could beat them to death, take everything I want that they own, and I would be superior to them only in the area of combat. Not in personality, or intentions, or anything else.

Honestly, that supremely arrogant viewpoint of "I'm human, so I'm the best this planet has to offer" attitude disgusts me. You were born as a human, it is nothing you did, or can do that made you that way. That's the exact same ideal that racism is formed from. A cat is born a cat, a rat a rat, and a human a human. Believing yourself better than something else because of something that you have no control over is a belief born of ignorance and delusion. I think myself no better than a black or asian person that I do a cat. Why? Any one of those animals can most definately do at least 1 thing better than I can. Regardless of what that is, it proves that I am only different, not better.