[fable]

Originally Posted by Inter

Hello, fable, as it appears to be you that is the lead of the most arguments between others here, then some of my comments might be directed more at you then other members. I only ask that those who believe that reading the Wikipedia article, as I have seen used in the first three posts alone, gives them a view on this, please perform some more research before you place your opinions or ideas here.

Inter, hi. Good to see you. When you get to know me well, have read many posts of mine, I'll take seriously your request that I do more research. Until then, you haven't established your own credentials yet. And I don't believe you know anything about me, my work, or what I think or do to offer a view concerning my knowledge.

I also decline the honor of being "the lead" in most arguments in this thread. I do, however, acknowledge that you're most angry with my remarks, which may explain why you don't bother dealing with any of the questions I've raised. Anger clouds judgement. I think, in fact, that you'll find CElegans is actually a lot more definite in rejecting whatever you accept.

My name is Martin, from New York, and I'm pleased to meet a few of you here. When I got an e-mail with a link to this I was interested in Hill-whatever-name-he's-chosen-here's thread almost immediately, and he showed it to me when I came to his house recently for a visit. As the topic seems to have swerved a bit in the recent posts, let's get it back on topic of what people here actually know of the furry phenomenon, rather than there opinions on it or those who are active members of the legitimate-but-little-known-of religion.

Wrong. The topic Hill-Shatar created was as follows:

Recently I got wondering on what you guys actually know about Anthropomorphism. It's basically a form of culture revolving around humans who look like animals. At least, that's what most of it is about... some are animals who can talk, and some such.

I've noticed how large Anthro is getting in today's culture, even if the actual population of "Furries" isn't exactly growing to huge amounts of people. Fans have been popping out of nowhere. So... what do people know about it? Your opinions? I'm a bit curious, see.

As you can see, the topic was about our opinions, which Hill-Shatar wanted to know. So you misunderstood the very first post, and continued throughout the rest of yours based on that misunderstanding. Please don't try to correct us on how we are supposed to run our threads, however.

Yes, I'm part of it, which I have no problem mentioning. I also work as an executive in a bussiness, leading to having to move myself and my wife of four years to this forsaken city, so this is not the preaching of a back country hick. ;-)

I take exception to your implication that because somebody came from a rural community, their opinions would be worth less than those from an urban background. I think you'll find that we have a lot of people from diverse backgrounds and cultures on GameBanshee, including rural ones. They're no less valued for what they have to say. And I really mean that.

What you need to know is that our religion is something that I believe whole heartedly in, and that yes, it is a small group of the more radical "Furs" that originally made it up. Although Hill never was really interested in it over the years, he tried to learn a bit of it over the years. In essence, we hope through study and similar texts of whatever form to find a way to leave and come back a different form. No, this is not exactly new, as there have been what have been called "Cults" throughout our history which have failed in the task. As for reincarnation, well... I do suppose Buddhism is not included here in a quest for Nervana, with millions of followers?

Except that Buddhism teaches reincarnation is something bad, a matter of chaining yourself to illusion. Achieving nirvana is to escape from reincarnation, and the sequence of birth and death. So I'm not quite sure why you're bringing it up.

So since you claim to represent a religion, could we have some details of your religion? You provide none. In their pure form (not as offshoots developed much later), religion is all about answering the whys of the universe: Why am I here? Why was I born, and why am I going to die? Why do perfectly good people end up being killed? So what are the answers to these questions that your Furry religion provides? And what else makes your religion a "religion?" And what are the methods of worship? Some clear exposition on this is required, and your links furnish nothing of the kind. Anybody can establish something they claim is a religion, whether it is or isn't.

As for the African tribes, no, that was not an excellent description from Hill, but you did ask whether people immerse themselves so completely into these forms of roleplaying.

Only it isn't roleplaying, as I think I made clear, above, just as the use of animal symbology in, say, Egyptian and Hindu religion, doesn't mean a worshipper believes they are worshipping somebody with a hawk's head. To argue that African religions are engaged in some form of roleplaying completely misunderstands everything about those religions.

Most of these were probably from the time when Burned Fur was still around, and if you read it, I congratulate you. If you didn't, then no reason you described it in one paragraph as "some kid who hates life stroking him/herself off while reading furry porn?" Unless I have slits on my arms and am currently stroking myself to the picture of some macro wolf, I highly doubt your blatant insult to the community is anymore than the ramblings of a person who has been causing us problems for our entire time in this fandom/religion?

So we're in agreement that any kid who writes, and reads, furry porn is in need of real help? And that they furnish a large part of the furry community, unless 5 or 10 people are sitting around writing close to 1000 stories on the Web, and occupying numerous MUDs? Meaning no offense, but where do you get off attacking me in the name of a religion you haven't even established, especially since the documents you link to use the strongest language as I have in condemning these same porn furries?

Furry who has been a part of the actual group for the past eight years? As for the work of authors such as C.S Lewis and Brian Jauqes (Redwall), the latter of which has a huge following and has "people" with animal qualities such as swimming and climbing trees with ease, are they two bit stories that are not half way decent with no need with animal skins, when the entire basis of stories is on fighting more "Vermin-like" animals with all sides having abilities due to one's race?

I can't say I have ever heard of, or read, Brian Jauqes. If by CS Lewis you mean the fairy-tale elements in his Narnia series, those have nothing to do with furries and everything to do with using anthropomorphic animal elements to make his point to kids, in imitation of the bestsellers of his age: Mother Goose. You do realize the Lewis was a fundamentalist Christian who would probably have had a heart attack if he were alive, and found his name dragged into this conversation? Trying to claim anything Lewis wrote as "furry" is like trying to claim the Mahabharata for feminism. The terms have no relevance. If anything written that uses a talking animal constitutes furrydom, then every cartoon is, every fable is--in short, the word furry ceases to have any meaning. It becomes useless, as well as inaccurate.

As for your obviously misinformed "information" that has lead you to obliviously post such crap, or whoever it was, that we want to be animals, let's look at one of the few sites that Wikipedia got right, shall we? ( http://furry.wikia.com/wiki/Burned_Furs )

First of all, I request that you keep a civil tongue in your head. I may have differences with Hill-Shatar, but I respect him, and he respects me. If you want to discuss anything with me, you can do the same, and that applies to all conversations with anybody else, as well. You agreed to this when you joined this board. Consider this fair warning.

Second, if you're one of a group of furries defining yourself as being separate from another group, that's all well and good: but Hill-Shatar's initial question didn't ask specifically about one group, or another. If you'd bothered to truly read and undestand his initial post, you would have realized that. He simply wanted to know what our reactions were to the sub-culture. Not sub-cultures plural, note.

AsI leave you with this. I may return some time to hear the arguments as they come in, but I see no reason to argue with a self proclaimed expert from the internet, and I don't want to watch as Hill tries to argue with you, which I have no idea why he is really doing that anyways, considering how you are analyzing such things as African Religion and then using Wicca as an example. I might have confused your meanings, but for the most part, your arguments make little sense to me at all, and they don;t seem to have much reason behind them either.

So you're the kind of person who likes to post-and-run, then? Not willing to provide evidence to back up claims? So much for dialog. And I don't suppose you'd be amenable to explaining how I used Wicca as an example of African religions? I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Be that as it may, thanks for coming by. I hope that if you do show up again, next time your remarks will be a bit more courteous, and far more explanatory rather than simply asserting you follow a religion, which anybody can claim.

Hill-Shatar: You still owe me a response. When you get the time.