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Originally Posted by Brother None  Georgia was lying, they had not pulled out all of its troops at that point.
In other words, both parties kept fighting. Georgia was already retreating by the point they started making serious overtures towards "negotiations", which is ridiculous, what you do at that point is surrender.
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And Russia is lying right now, cause there are still eyewitness reports of Russian APVs driving into Gori... properly to "keep peace".
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
So? The US does the same in South-America, yet they do not default to undemocratic because of it. Superpower always assert their influence in their spheres, that's simply the way international politics works. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.<snip> |
And the standard of one aren't apparently that of the other. People are quick to jump on the "bash US" bandwagon when they exert their interest in their "influence sphere" on slim or less then obvious reasons.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
Chechnya is a separate matter. I don't approve of anything Russia did there, but I find it hard to use it as a litmus test, and to uphold all political and military actions in the region against that light.
That said, Chechnya actually proves my point. It took Russia more than a decade to pacify that region, and Chechnya has only a fifth of the population of Georgia. It is exactly because they already experienced Chechnya that Russia has no interest in repeating the experience with Georgia.
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Actually - Chechnya is very much a related matter. Because it purely and clearly demonstrate how far Russia is willing to go to keep the control they think they own. It shows they care little, if anything, for the rights of anybody then themselves (if even that) and aren't shy of targeting civilians left and right to achieve their means.
And now they went to war with Georgia with the argument that Georgia was doing what Russia did in Chechnya. It is very much relevant and related.
Combine this with all the times Russia have spoken out against others doing what they do themselves now - Kosovo being an excellent example - simply because they were more or less allied with the "targeted" part, then it is very very clear that they uses this instance for something more then "peace keeping".
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
I feel your grasp of the GOS/post-USSR political landscape is a bit on the weak side, forgive me for saying. Russia has never had any serious chance of maintaining a sphere of influence in the Baltic countries or Poland, as these four nations steamrolled towards the West from the moment the USSR fell.
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You might call that "weak", however the examples set by how easy/fast countries like Poland, the Baltic and Ukraine can turn towards the west and away from mother Russia is a political scenario that Russia does not want to happen elsewhere in their "sphere of influence". Especially considering the missile defense that the US want to put up, possible expansion of NATO and similar.
So I feel it is a bit naive, to say the least, to ignore such history for why Russia really wants to tear Georgia apart. Weak as you might think it is or not.
Russia doesn't want other nations to turn towards the west as fast or at all, and they prove that right now. Huge motives for using this conflict or even escalating it to achieve what they want.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
How are Russian territories being expanded, exactly?
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Gaining de facto control over South Ottensia and Akbazia. Perhaps taking a larger part of Georgia as they are at the moment in Gori as well.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
These actions sparking anti-Russian feelings is as inevitable as it is irrelevant. Certain people will jump at any change to spout anti-Russian lines, and Russia is under no obligation to adopt their foreign policy to them, let alone fail in its task of protecting South-Ossetia.
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Or fail in protecting Chechnya.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
What are the quotation marks for?
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Peacekeeping troops doesn't support militias.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
Oh, indeed, Russia uses a lot of military muscle to massage other countries into submission, as well as economic pressure. Pretty standard stuff for spheres of influence politics, really.
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Yes, but why is it bad when the USA does it, or other nations - but okay when Russia does it?
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
So basically what you're saying is Russia has done bad things before, so inherently the defence of South-Ossetia by Russia has to be a bad thing as well? You're going to have to run by me how that's supposed to make any sense.
Are you saying Russia's defence of South-Ossetia was a bad thing?
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I'm saying Russia is doing bad things right now, have a recent history of military violence and willingness to directly attack countries they deem within their right to do so.
There are strong political and economical reasons for why they want to slap Georgia upside down and they have a history of doing so when they so choose. I say that they have motives for escalating the conflict to new heights even by supporting militants to break the cease-fire with Georgia goading a weak president in that country to retaliate and then getting an excuse for smacking Georgia as a deterrent for other nations seeking towards the west.
I'm saying that their motives clearly go deeper then "defense" Of South Ossetia and that I can't see the noble intentions of them.
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Originally Posted by Brother None <snip>
Yes, because Russia decided out of the blue to invade Georgia... |
Who ever said it was out of the blue. Something as this is calculated and weighed.
No doubt Russia identified a weak Georgia courting the West, and a US spread out over the world in other conflicts and an EU which of course wouldn't actually do anything but offer diplomatic "support".
No - this isn't "out of the blue", it is very well calculated.
Russia has blood on its hands, and this doesn't wash it the least. Georgia has as well no doubt - but Russia isn't noble in its endeavors and its actions show that clearly. It is silly to think so in my view.